From: Newtopia (MicroSSG_at_Comcast.net)
Date: Thu Jan 29 2004 - 07:32:44 PST
Frank,
Very well put, a true gentleman. Thanks for all that you do!
One very grateful fan,
Paul Curtis
-----Original Message-----
From: newtontalk-bounce_at_newtontalk.net
[mailto:newtontalk-bounce_at_newtontalk.net] On Behalf Of Frank Gruendel
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 3:26 PM
To: newtontalk_at_newtontalk.net
Cc: GEM_at_Gementerprises.Com
Subject: [NTLK] Followup Gem Enterprises
Oh boy,
I never expected I'd be starting such an avalance...
Since this has been discussed quite a bit in the meantime, I will answer all
this publicly. Gary from Gem Enterprises is cc on this mail.
Please let me start by pointing out that I firmly believe that everyone
selling Newton stuff is basically doing the Newton community a favor. This
includes Gem Enterprises, and it also includes, to a certain degree, "The
certain seller we all know and love".
If no Newtons were sold because people who can afford it buy them in large
quantities when offered, there'd be a lot less Newtons around, and this
community would be a lot less alive.
And there are definitely easier ways to make money than by selling anything
Newton-related.
There are, however, subtle differences in how such a business can be
conducted. By this I do not mean how a transaction is handled once it has
taken place. In this aspect both Gem and the certain seller are quite good
according to their eBay feedback.
English not being my native language, I am afraid I might not get across
what I mean in the next paragraph. But I will try.
There are differences
in how you advertise what you are planning to sell. This starts with
claiming items to be "extremely rare" although a quick eBay search turns out
they are all over the place, and it does not end with mentioning things that
are quite obviously not true or phrase auction texts in a way that everyone
will at least believe they are meant in a particular way they aren't
actually meant in.
Another thing is prices. Quite obviously it would be ridiculous to expect
that anyone can do sales and repairs at the prices I sell or repair at. I
fortunately have a job that I like that pays the rent and feeds myself and
my family. All Newton things are done nightly around midnight. I'm doing
this mostly for fun and because it feels good to be able to do something
others can't do.
And, believe it or not, I like helping people. Especially members of this
community. All I want is coverage of expenses and a marginal profit that
enables me to buy more parts.
It would be ridiculous to believe that a company that is doing this for a
living can be expected to have even remotely similar prices.
But there are limits. If I come across an auction that is so overpriced that
I gasp, I'm feeling that those sellers have crossed the border between being
useful and trying to rip people off.
Please note that I didn't write the above paragraph to accuse Gem of doing
any of this. It would be extremely unfair of me to accuse Gem of anything
since the auction we are currently talking about is pretty much the first
I've ever seen of them. I just wrote it to get across what I feel about
business ethics. Which, I'm afraid, I didn't succeed in.
Getting it across, I mean.
Just in case you aren't sufficiently bored yet, please let me comment on
parts of the previous posts.
> I'm a square guy to deal with and not a fellow who does things to
> hurt, deceive or otherwise act in a manner that is not ethical.
Gary, it was never my intention to imply any of this. I don't know you
personally, nor do I know anybody working at Gem, so it would have been more
than out of the line to accuse you of any of the above.
> We are simply GIVING AWAY the links with the purchase as stated
> "**PLUS-AS AN ADDED BONUS**
I'm perfectly aware that I won't make many friends at Gem with this
(provided that it is still possible), but unfortunately my parents have
raised me in a way that makes me always say what I think.
This statement reminds me a bit of German sex cinemas. In Germany it is
illegal to show sex films publicly. This is why watching sex films isn't
what you pay for when you visit such a cinema. You pay for the bottle of
beer, wine or the soft drink.
Watching the film is just an added bonus and has nothing whatsoever to do
with what is sold. Sorry, couldn't resist.
As for "not copying", you might want to have a look at your own auction text
and compare it with the wording on http://www.pda-soft.de.hardware.html
If this isn't a copy, I think my definition of a copy urgently needs to be
updated.
> and linking and or distribution of hyperlinks does not require
> royalties and you don't need a Juris Doctor to ascertain that.
Again, it might be because I'm not a native speaker, but I thought that I
sufficiently got across by now that I am not after royalties. If I were, I
wouldn't have published the info in the web in the first place.
> I have plenty of law courses under my belt if you research my
> background
Congratulations. Myself, I wouldn't even try to understand German law even
though to my admittedly limited mind it often makes more sense than American
law.
> I would like to pass on these links to fellow Newton users to HELP
> them, and as you said yourself it could even lead to sales.
If you want to help Newton users, all you'd have had to do is add a link to
http://www.pda-soft.de/hardware.html in your auction text. The wording on
this page, as mentioned above, is identical to your auction text. It's just
the background image that is different.
And the fact that there are real links on it.
I am aware that you mentioned that adding links to auction texts is
forbidden by eBay. Frankly, this puzzles me quite a lot. All of the more
than 200 eBay auctions that I was the seller in had a link to a picture that
lived on my web site in them. I very frequently add links to my auction
texts that link to handbooks, operators manuals, reviews, larger images
etc., and so far eBay hasn't pulled a single of these auctions. Admittedly
this was mostly eBay.de, and my last auction was some time ago. But I'm
still seeing these links all over the place no matter what eBay branch I'm
currently in. Also, in my web site's statistics eBay has a place among the
top ten every week. More often than not they take up the place right after
the usual search engines. Mostly these links are from eBay auctions where
weak or dead Newton/eMate hardware is sold, and nearly all of them are from
eBay.com.
> The auction is for a CD-ROM of information, The MONT BLANC of all
> Styli and Newton 2000, 2100 Clear Screen Protectors as stated-the
> links are free.
See above. I do think that there might be buyers who wouldn't bid for the
stylus and screen protectors and CD alone. People who think that stylus and
screen protectors and CD ALONG with my info is a good deal, stylus and
screen protectors and CD WITHOUT said info isn't. Wouldn't you agree? These
people would, to a certain degree, pay for this "free" info. If it hadn't
been promised, they wouldn't have bid.
> If you like, I will send you a copy for free as it has a lot of nice
> utilities.
Thanks for the offer. Since I have no doubt that you mean it, I have a
better idea. Why not send the CD to Victor? For one, shipping to Canada is
much less expensive than shipping to Germany. And it would be certainly an
excellent idea if Victor could upload any info that isn't already at unna to
his site. And since I will (hopefully) no longer pay internet access by the
minute as of tomorrow (fingers crossed), myself and the rest of the
community would have access to this CD's info soon.
> If I was taking bread off of your (Frank's) table I should be ashamed,
> but in fact I am not taking bread off anyone's table.
I never intended to imply this. Matter of fact, if this was what puts bread
on my table, my whole family would be starved since October 2000 when my
site went online ;-) Apart from that, no one in his right mind will publish
info he is planning to live on in the web.
> Frank, if you link, I will discontinue the ads when they run out and
> not link anyone to your website now or in the future, feel free to
> send a request to GEM_at_Gementerprises.Com and or cal me personally with
> a request and I will be happy to do so simply as a courtesy to you and
> certainly not under any legal obligation or premise whatsoever.
If it is in fact not possible to put a direct link into your auction texts,
I would like you to take this out of your ads. But, again, I do not object
per se to your using this info. If it can boost your sales, it's fine with
me. Many eBay sellers do this, I can see it every day in my site's
statistics. And there's certainly no need for your stopping to link anyone
to my site. My feeling is that you said that you can't do this because if
you did eBay would pull your auction. If I'm mistaken, you are welcome to
put as many links to my site as you want into any of your auction texts.
All I object to is that users will consider the info part of the deal.
My personal feeling is that it is of no importance whatsoever how you
rephrase the text, even if you rephrase it the way Victor suggested.
As long as the links aren't there for anyone to see, only the high bidder
will get the promised info, no matter how often the word "free" appears in
the auction text.
And this, in my opinion, actually makes it the very opposite of free.
Well, this post is long enough and I guess I have made enough enemies for
one day. I'd suggest we leave it at that. My opinion is not going to change,
neither is (very likely) Gem's opinion going to change, so it'd be more or
less a waste of bandwith to elaborate further on this.
Guess I will spend the rest of the day pondering if I should dare to inquire
about the total you (Gary) ask for selling your whole stock of Newton items
in a bulk which you offered me in a seperate mail today. Since my spare
parts level is getting desperately low...
;-))
All the best
Frank
-- Newton Software and Hardware at http://www.pda-soft.de
-- This is the NewtonTalk list - http://www.newtontalk.net/ for all inquiries List FAQ/Etiquette/Terms: http://www.newtontalk.net/faq.html Official Newton FAQ: http://www.chuma.org/newton/faq/ -- This is the NewtonTalk list - http://www.newtontalk.net/ for all inquiries List FAQ/Etiquette/Terms: http://www.newtontalk.net/faq.html Official Newton FAQ: http://www.chuma.org/newton/faq/
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